Swans interview: Michael Gira on the end of an era

Image: Micheal Gira of Swans by Enriko Boettcher

Deciding to call time on something is never easy, particularly when the thing in question is comfortable, familiar, and familial. Walking away is often the bravest thing you can do. 

However, Michael Gira, legendary mastermind behind the critically acclaimed and publicly revered 35-year-old experimental rock troupe Swans, has never been one for comfort, familiarity, or cowardice. During his time commanding the tiller of this ever-changing entourage, band mates have come and gone and performances have set out to be both intensely loud, and perpetually fresh.

On stage, he has always preferred to rethink and reinterpret recorded work, as opposed to simply replaying the same old chords. The result means you've got about as much chance of seeing the same show twice as the leading man has of sitting back and revelling in all that has been achieved, rather than putting energy into what comes next. 

This month the outfit arrive in Manchester to headline a Transformer event at Victoria Warehouse, capping off a bill of unarguably impressive acts - The Fall, Loop, Royal Trux, Suuns, and more are also involved too.

More significantly, this date forms part of a wider tour, which will bring the band's current incarnation to a halt; ushering in a new age after seven years on the road and in the studio as one. Real end of an era stuff, we talk to Gira and ask how emotional he's feeling, and where Swans are headed from here.

Hi Michael, how's everything going at the moment? 

Fine, I'm kind of on a hiatus between tours, so just working on the stuff I do in the meantime.

How did the last string of dates go? 

Oh, I suppose some of them were spectacular. Others not so.

Do you care to tell us a little more about those that weren't so spectacular? 

Well, it's just when things don't congeal and that's inevitable when you leave things open to interpretation or improvisation. Sometimes it just doesn't work. I don't know what else to say really. The band is pretty much one body at this point; we've been playing so many shows over the last seven years. We have a real telepathic communication and it's very satisfying, hopefully for the audience as well.

We don't play older material, we just play new stuff. Even the stuff that has been recorded gets re-interpreted and changed, constantly. We'll discover new things in a set and then the next day in sound check we'll develop things further. So that keeps it in transference and I hope the audience follows that along.

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This is the final tour for Swans in the current line up. Does that mean it's more emotional than others? 

You know, I'm just doing the work and I think that's how we all are about it. I'm not really thinking about what's next. This has been a great experience but it's obvious to all of us that this iteration has run its course. The task at hand is to keep it vital now, and not think about the past or dissolution in the future.

How was the decision made that this is it for the band, as things are right now? 

I guess I made the decision, but it's not like I'm dissatisfied with anyone. I love these gentlemen and they have provided for me, personally, some of the highest points I've ever reached musically. I'm talking about in performance, I equate those moments with revelation or spiritual transcendence. For that I'm truly grateful, it has been all consuming and wonderful, and I forget what I was going to say. Sorry.

So basically natural feelings that things need to move on? 

Oh yeah, people have their own set of possibilities - myself included. Once you have explored them it reaches a stage where you've wrung the cloth dry. Like I say, we're endeavouring and I believe exceeding in keeping vital, necessary, and compelling now. But I can't see pushing new material any further than it has gone. 

There are two, I believe, entirely new pieces in the set that haven't been recorded, and we're also changing the other material so many sections have nothing to do with what was actually recorded. That feels the best to perform and that translates to the audience.

Swans gigs are known for their intensity and quality of sound, not to mention high volume. Do you ever worry about the fact people are increasingly using platforms and devices to listen to music that don't actually sound as great? 

I think about it, but ultimately I don't fucking care. My job is to do the best work I can do and if people gravitate towards that, great. If not I still have to do the job.

We have been fortunate enough to attract a much larger audience than Swans has ever had before and a great proportion of them are young people. So I don't believe things are as constrained as you think. I think if there's a core of originality, commitment, and an underlying quality to the work certain people will gravitate towards it. Others will listen to whatever the hell they listen to these days. But it's our job to make the best work possible, and I'm thankful people have come towards it. 

As far as the volume is concerned, that is a continuing and developing problem. Particularly in Europe, on the continent. There are many restrictions which we figured out ways of getting around. But I figure the Nanny State wants to protect people from themselves. They have the choice whether or not to come, you know.

So I guess that's a problem and, also, personally after 35 years of dong this but particularly the last seven, subjecting myself every night to this for three hours a time, is no longer tenable.

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What's the solution then? Give up, or quieten down? 

Well, I'm not going to start making music with ukuleles in the near future. Well, I may incorporate a ukulele, in fact, I have. But I suspect the future stuff is going to be a little less of an onslaught. 

As you may, or may not, know, I'm going to continue Swans, but it's going to be a shifting line up and less intense touring schedules. That's about all I know. I don't have any new songs, I just have a colour in my mind of how the material is going to go.

And what colour is it? 

It's always red.

In terms of the shifting line up. Do you have any collaborations in mind? 

Yeah, several people actually. I hope these guys will still play with me, too, but I just don't want a set band, you know. I also have some people in mind from outside - but I think it would be impolite to mention names. Again I have to sit down after the touring is over and write some new material, and I guess the personnel will be revealed by the value of the material and what shape that takes.

All in all, then, it must be an exciting time- a clean slate of sorts? 

It's also terrifying, like being cut adrift, but maybe that's a good place to be.

Tour aside, the Swans album The Great Annihilator is about to be re-released, re-mastered. Why now? 

Well, you know, my long term goal is to have everything in print in the best possible format and configuration, as well as sound quality. It's my life's work, so I want to make sure it's still extant, and those who gravitate towards this sort of thing are able to procure it if they want. 

In the case of The Great Annihilator, I'd been dissatisfied for years with the sound of that record. But there was no way to untangle the sonic knots that had accrued as a result of it being mastered improperly, in my opinion.

So when Bill Rieflin discovered these old mixes, as opposed to masters, I was able to start afresh with them, with Doug Henderson who's a great mastering engineer. I believe it sounds the best it ever could now.

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In what ways were you dissatisfied originally? 

To me, it was thin, harsh, just too narrow a bandwidth sonically. I was embroiled in other things, someone else mastered it. When it was finished there was a schedule and I just let it go. I suppose I shouldn't have.

Considering Swans approach to live performances - improvisation, experimentation - it must take a while to get ready for a tour, does this impact on how much control you can keep the records and their mastering?

I think recording and live are entirely different worlds. I've made some bad records in my time too. It just happens. It's a long time to be working.

Which records would you say are bad? 

I can't point at particulars because some people really like those records. I don't want to lessen the experience for them. I think they're kind of obvious though. In total I kind of regret everything. It's really hard for me to listen to things, even the most recent records. I'm completely unsatisfied, to be honest. But I can't do anything about it, so I just move on.

In ten years of music journalism that's probably one of the most honest answers to anything, we've asked. Presumably, these feelings of dissatisfaction and regret actually feed vitality - making you want to do better next time? 

It's not that I dwell on it. It's just when I go back a listen I'm a bit nonplussed and wish I'd done things differently. But you can't fix everything so you try for the next thing.

In a way it's all just one piece, you know. It's just a process and I guess the interest could be found in the workings of the process. Nothing is ever finished. I guess these last three records, in particular, are just one piece.

Particularly in the way they were made- discovering the material in live performance, editing and re-iterating and figuring it out as it goes. That's the way the material developed on the last three records. So those are one piece.

You can grab Swans tickets via the box below as they come to Victoria Warehouse with The Fall, Suuns, Royal Trux and more.